Ellen Leonard 00:00
Do you want your employees to sleep, you want your employees to eat lunch, and not work through lunch, because they're going to be better performing in the afternoon if they're not hungry. I mean, it's the simple things like you want them to be taking care of themselves. You want them to have the time and the space and energy to, to do the things that will keep them going just like you want the same for yourself.
Introduction
Most business owners and entrepreneurs are secretly sick of hustling. And if you are too, you're in the right place. Welcome to the Hustle Less Profit More Podcast with me, Mickey Anderson, where we're revolutionizing success because you should have it all. Business success, lasting wealth, freedom, and fulfillment. Join me on this quest to uncover the keys to defining and achieving success on our terms, so we can all Hustle Less and Profit More.
Mickey Anderson 01:01
Ellen Leonard is a stress management consultant coach and speaker who helps business leaders and organizations manage the stress of change to create more agile, productive, and connected workplaces. The stress-less method incorporates evidence-based tools and supports improvements in productivity, resilience, employee retention, healthcare costs, business profitability, and performance. In this episode, Elena and I speak all about the stress of entrepreneurship, how it weighs on our bodies, minds and spirits, and what we can do in simple actionable steps to take control and live a healthier lifestyle. I hope you enjoy this episode. Thank you so much for being here with me, Ellen. I so appreciate your time and expertise. I am really excited to talk about stress.
Mickey Anderson 01:49
I’m sure, our audiences are excited to hear about not necessarily just stress, but how to deal with and manage stress. But you know, one of the things I so appreciate about you, I was doing my research, and you also have a background in adult education.
Ellen Leonard 2:03
Yeah.
Mickey Anderson 2:04
And so, you bring not just an expertise in stress as a researcher at, but you also have experience in how to teach people -
Ellen Leonard 2:12
Yeah.
Mickey Anderson 2:12
Properly, And that's been a huge disconnect I found, a lot of people can get lots of information, but to actually learn and implement it as a whole different.
Ellen Leonard 2:20
Oh, yeah, I completely agree. And thank you for recognizing that, because so often that's overlooked, especially in wellness programming. And it makes me a little crazy, because I'm like, “Yeah, you just throw all this information at people, but you didn't help them implement lasting behavioral change.” So it's like, I bring my adult education, and my extensive coaching training together, boom, to help people make these lasting behavioral changes. Because that's, that's the ballgame. Like, I can tell you as, as much as I want about how bad stress is for you. You don't need to hear that. You need actual strategies that work in your life, and ways to implement them. Like right now. That's what people need.
Mickey Anderson 3:00
You know, there's a huge difference between knowing and doing. And I think that's where that education background, and the coaching really comes into play. Because most of us know better. Whether we do better is a whole different story. So we -
Ellen Leonard 3:15
Yeah, the example I always give with that is like, if presented with an option between kale and a cupcake. I'm always picking the cupcake. I know the kale is better. But I'm like, always like, no. Like, the obvious answer is a cupcake. Even though rationally, I know the kale is the better choice.
Mickey Anderson 3:35
Yes, yes. It's so true. And I think there's also a lot of misinformation out there around stress, around health, and around how to just deal with things on a behavioral level, what you need to be doing on a day to day basis, and a lot of it feels super overwhelming.
Ellen Leonard 3:50
Yeah, that's because it is like, hello. And you're feeling completely overwhelmed by that, it’s because it's overwhelming. Just to validate that for everybody.
Mickey Anderson 4:02
Yes, we all needed to hear that. Because it's true. There's just and we're inundated with messages not just of health and what to do, but also marketing messages about how to look and be all this stuff. So can you tell us a little bit about, I'm super curious about how you came to find this passion and curiosity around stress.
Ellen Leonard 4:22
Oh, yeah. Because it's really funny. Like, you wouldn't think that that would be something that somebody will become really obsessed and passionate about. Like, objectively I know. That's super weird. Like, just like, yeah, that's really awkward and weird, but I'm really awkward where it's so silly by No. So it was a huge narratives, I’m a scientific researcher. For like, 12 or 13 years, I ran labs, I published papers, big nerd. Oh, and I put all those papers on my LinkedIn, even though they're completely irrelevant to what I'm doing right now. Because I'm like, no, no, no, I did that. Yeah, so if anybody's curious, but anyway, yeah, so I was doing all this nerdiness and one day
05:00
really clicked me. I was like, “Oh, I could do whatever I want.” Like it. It literally never popped into my brain. So then I like explored some stuff. And, you know, I'd always been interested in health and wellness stuff for me. And I was like, “Oh, let's let's science that. Let's see what's going on with that sciency health and wellness stuff.” And I noticed a consistent theme of stress. Like, and everything I was learning from all these courses I was taking and everything that I was seeing, I was like, “Oh, yeah, people are so stressed. And nobody's talking about it.” Like they're talking about it. Like tangentially like, meta of like, they're like, “Oh, I'm so stressed. Stress is so bad.” But then nobody was doing anything about it. I'm like, This is crazy. This is not good. And this is years ago, like that. I was thinking this, this is like, what, 12 years ago, 10 years ago, anyway, it's been a minute. It's not just pandemic craziness, stress, but it's like not current stress is like, in the before times, when I was like, this is a situation. And so then, I discovered this in the middle of my master's degree. And I discovered that, yeah, everybody was just throwing education at wellness stuff. And I was like, “But their science says, that's not going to help people.” And I was so mystified by it, like, it made no sense to me. I was like, “This is stupid. Like, like,
06:19
why are you doing this?” Like, there's like so often stress management luncheon learns, like an everybody on this call has been in the stress management legend, all of them, but to describe where you're like, “Let's talk about what's happening with the hormones and your body and your cortisol and your adrenaline.” And I'm like, there is no mom who's like, she's, she's got a job. She's got like, three kids. And she's not like cooking dinner thinking, “What's going on with my cortisol?” Like, what's, what's happening with that? That's not what she's thinking. She's thinking, “I am going to strangle my children in a nice and loving way.” But you know what I mean? Like, like, “Where are they? What? I'm going to turn off the internet. Don't make me turn off the internet like that.” These are the things that she says like, “Why is my dinner on fire?” Like?
Mickey Anderson 07:05
Yes, yeah. And explaining my life right now.
Ellen Leonard 7:07
Yeah. And it was just such a disconnect for me. I was like, “What is happening,” like, every time and then I would get hired for stuff. And that was what they were wanting. And it was so like, it was just so weird to me. So, and so that's how I became passionate about the way that I operate the offerings that I have, the focus on behavioral change. And the focus on stress was interesting. Because not only like was I like, well, this is clearly a big problem that we need to get a handle on. But what was fascinating to me was that the approach to stress wasn't at all nuanced. It was like, “Let's meditate.” And I'm like, “Okay, and like,
07:49
the truth about stress management is that everything that works for your general health and wellness is also a stress management tool. So like, why not multitask, like if you are working on losing weight to fit into your wedding dress, or to lose that baby weight or whatever? Oh, spoiler alert, that helps to manage your stress. So it's, it's just so many layers. Yeah, I get a little excited. Sorry about that. I'll settle down.
Mickey Anderson 8:12
I love it. No, it's amazing. And please don't settle down. Because this is totally my vibe.
08:18
I love it. Because, you know, as a busy mom running a business, people will continually say, “Oh, man, you manage so much to your hero. How do you do it all?” And the whole time, I'm like, “I don't want to do it all this is not sustainable. Please help.” But nobody seems to want it. They just walk away and they're like, “You’re a hero, high-five,” and then walk away. “Or you should try meditation,” or like, that's it. That's always the responses. “Have you, have you done any self-care? Have you maybe like gone to get your nails done?” And I'm like,
08:47
That's it. That's okay.
Ellen Leonard 8:49
The self-care argument. Like -
Mickey Anderson 8:51
That's it.
Ellen Leonard 8:51
You should um, like, I mean, these are for real, like, I love meditation. I love self-care. Those are things that I definitely work on my clients with. Those are not the end-all and be-all practices that like a woman is just gonna roll in and check off her list. “Oh, I got my nails done.” And now suddenly, my life isn't a chaos dumpster fire mess. Like, it's not how it works.
Mickey Anderson 9:14
At my favorite though, is people will say, “Oh, man, I'm burnt out. I'm gonna take a weekend off and then I'll be fine.” And it's like, pretty, pretty sure a weekend off isn't the resolution to burnout but you do.
Ellen Leonard 9:23
Yeah, you “Oh, oh, you got this. So it's gonna be okay. I swear”.
Mickey Anderson 9:29
Oh and, okay. So let's talk about stress in less of that. I think we all understand stress itself, how it feels in our body. I know what I feel like when I'm feeling stressed. And so, I feel like you can find a lot of that information online. Let's get into how we can actually manage stress, what that looks like, in terms of our behaviors. And not so much, you know, that cortisol.
Ellen Leonard 9:52
Right? Like, yeah, real solutions. And here's, like, what's always so baffling to me is like people are experiencing
10:00
stress, especially entrepreneurs, right? They're experiencing stress. And then they're actively not doing anything about it. And here's the like, crazy thing. Stress is related to like, I feel like I have to whisper this, I feel like I'm about to say a bad word, like, stress is related to like, 90% of illnesses.
10:19
That is so insane. Like, that's some estimates. I'm like, “Who is the person studying that?” But that's anyway. But as an entrepreneur and a mom, I'm sorry, do you have time maybe to be sick? Is that something?
Mickey Anderson 10:31
No, no, I'm actually currently sick. And I don't have time for this. Like, it's never-ending? No.
Ellen Leonard 10:38
Yeah. And so like, I feel like it's the competitive stress, like stress management is the competitive edge that will help you be successful in your business. And the acknowledgement, and the realization of that can really drive people to action. And so like, the first thing I would say, for all entrepreneurs, listening, is you need a plan. Like, like you are planning your funnel, your marketing, your social, you need a plan for stress management, for this quarter, for, for this week, for this day, and you need to approach it with the same passion and get-it-done attitude that I know that everybody listening is doing. Like, you're not canceling on clients. So why are you canceling on you? Why are you canceling that yoga class? Why are you canceling that five-minute break? Or that 30-minute walk, or that? Whatever it is that you're actively doing? So many people listening? Already know the things that will help them manage stress? That's what's so cool. It's like, oftentimes, we know Mickey, do you know, like five things off the top of your head that would help you manage stress today?
Mickey Anderson 11:46
Oh, my gosh, I could list about a million.
Ellen Leonard 11:49
Yes. So we, we all know. And so of course, I'm gonna “Don't worry people” who are like, “No, lady, I need some,” I'm gonna give you some answers. But I just want to say like, as entrepreneurs, as a business woman, you are already good at planning, use that skill. Put it on your calendar, I don't know about you, man, keep it like the second something goes on my calendar, it stays on my calendar. And it means it'll get done. Because I have an obsessive need to check things off.
12:17
I'm like, I would like yeah, so if that will help. I have worked with so many clients who like that's a motivational tool, I'm like, “We'll put it on your list. Like if walking your dog for 30 minutes every day, helps you to like settle and calm and ground and manage your stress. Put it on your to do list like an actual so you can check it off.” It's super motivational for a lot of people who are, are really driven as entrepreneurs tend to be.
Mickey Anderson 12:41
You know, what I love that you said about this, right from the get-go was less about helping yourself, and self-care, and feeling good, and doing right for yourself. But the fact that it actually is an advantage in your business, because I know, both in myself and many of my clients avoid doing the stress management things that will help them in the long term because they assume it's, it's being selfish. I'm thinking about myself, instead of putting others in the business first. You know, I need, I need to prioritize the business. But I love you said that this is actually going to help you and be an advantage in your business. Can you talk to me about how stress management will actually improve your business?
Ellen Leonard 13:23
Oh, yeah. Because like, who is going to run your business? If you've lost your mind? Like who is it? Like when you're burnt out when you are like, Mickey’s laughing because she knows what I’m talking about, like
Mickey Anderson 13:34
Put that on a sticky note and put it on my wall.
Ellen Leonard 13:37
Well, everybody listening, like if you are an entrepreneur running your business, you know what that means, like, you know, how, like project deadlines come up, or crazy clients or whatever it is that you're dealing with. Like, you can't continue to show up, you are your business. Like, you can't continue to show up. If you're not sleeping, really irritable, having chronic pain, digestion issues, I'm just listening to basic ones. Oh, that's it. And these aren't even the ones that are like heart attack, stroke. I feel like I'm not even listening though. Those are definitely gonna make you less productive. If you have a heart attack, you're gonna be a little bit less productive. But those other ones are definitely impacting you. Like the things that we just pushed to the side are affecting you day to day, they're affecting your ability to show up for your clients. It stress affects your ability to think creatively, to problem-solve, to focus, right? to accomplish tasks. It affects all of those things in addition to, I know that everybody listening, like for your clients or your customers or whoever it is that you're serving. You want to show up awesome. Like, you don't want to show up that version of you that's coming home at night. I know her, I am her regularly. That's her. That is not who I want to show up as as my client like
15:00
For my clients, like I don't want to show up as her, like, exhausted, burnt out. No, I want them to get the best version of me because that's what they're paying for. And that's what they get. Because I set up my life to support that. So that I can structure things appropriately, so that I can maintain my productivity. Still be creative, be calm, and consistent with my clients, and kind, and empathetic with, you know, ideally, everybody I'm interacting with, but also those humans that live in my house. Those people, it's nice to be nice to them sometimes too, yeah, sometimes they get the worst of the like, if I've had a bad day. No, I've just seen that on TV. That's definitely not me.
Mickey Anderson 15:46
You know, I've heard this response once when I was talking to someone about taking better care of themselves and reducing their stress. And they said, “Yeah, but if I'm not constantly working and pushing my employees, they're gonna think I'm slacking and then they're gonna think it's okay for them to slack.”
Ellen Leonard 16:00
Oh, yeah. Did you shut that down?
Mickey Anderson 16:03
Yes, I want to say pretty effectively, but I would love to hear how you would respond to people who are thinking that they need to be constantly producing and working in order to be a good role model or a good leader.
Ellen Leonard 16:14
Yeah, and I hard disagree with that, hard disagree, because here's the deal. And I work with it. So not only do I work one on one with people coaching them for stress management, but my main part of my business is going into businesses and helping teams and entire organizations learn how to manage their stress, I regularly talk to leaders, about how to lead with stress management in mind, because here's the deal right now, people are done, your employees are exhausted. And when you lead from a place a mindset of acknowledging stress, and acknowledging what you're doing to help manage your stress. You know, let's say you're a team leader, and a project fails, or you don't get the sale, right? Share with your team. “Oh, this really sucks, guys. I'm so upset. I am just here's what I'm experiencing this” and tell them so they know it's okay to be stressed. They know it's okay. Because here's the thing. Everybody experiences stress, everybody. And if they say they don't, they're lying to you. But as a leader, you can lead from being like, “Yeah, this really sucks. This is really hard. And here's what I'm doing to manage it.” And it will lift your whole team up, because they will see you saying like, “Oh, she's stressed too. Oh, thank God,” because
17:42
and it will help you immensely because here's the deal. Like, the employees will see that you're taking breaks. So they'll take breaks. And your employees, when they are well rested and not losing their minds are going to work better for you a long term. It's just the way that it is, like you can't just keep pushing them, and pushing them, and pushing them. Like you're pushing yourself, and pushing yourself, and pushing yourself. Because that's gonna lead to burnout attrition. Like you're gonna have to be hiring people, like a lot of these companies that are like, we have to keep hiring people, we have to keep hiring people, because they keep pushing people. Amazon's a great example. Right? Their attrition rate is bonkers. It's because they push, push, push, push, push, and then they burn that group out and they move on to the next. And I'm guessing that everybody on this call doesn't want to be a part of that model. And when you're leading you lead by example. I mean, yeah, get stuff done, get your stuff handled, but make sure you're demonstrating that work-life balance, right, so that your employees are like, “Oh, oh, it's okay for me to turn my email off at night and hang out with my family. Oh, okay, I can do that. Oh, I can. I can take time and you know, schedule a time to exercise in the afternoon when it's convenient for me and my kids are off as long as I make up that time later or get that project done.” Oh, it can be very transformative.
Mickey Anderson 19:03
Well, you know, there's two things that came to mind. The first was as an employee, when you see somebody who is acknowledging the tough times, who is talking about the way that they're dealing with it, it makes it feel like they're not angry at you when they're behaving, right? Because sometimes when we're stressed, we were erratic or emotions get amped up. And if we're not talking about it, and we're not actively acknowledging like “I'm really stressed right now, there's a lot of pressure, I'm sure you are to.” A lot of times it can feel like the person's angry you. And that's not a good place to be as an employee to constantly feel like people are either angry at you or they're inconsistent. And so that's kind of the first half but the second half of it is the best teams in the world. If we look at them, a lot of times we assume that they're go, go, go, and that they never stop, but that's not accurate. The world know when to push and when it's necessary to go above and beyond but when it's not. They lean in to rest in
20:00
Wellness.
Ellen Leonard 20:01
Yeah. And you as a human, you actually need rest.
20:06
Like, you want your employees, you, you want your employees to sleep, you want your employees to eat lunch, and not work through lunch, because they're going to be better performing in the afternoon if they're not hungry. I mean, it's these simple things like you want them to be taking care of themselves. You want them to have the time, and the space, and energy, to, to do the things that will keep them going just like you want the same for yourself.
Mickey Anderson 20:35
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes we assume that if somebody's not stressed, maybe they don't care. But yeah, I don't think that's necessarily the case, right? Wrong?
Ellen Leonard 20:45
I know, I agree. I can care about a lot of things that don't stress me out. I mean, you care about your kids, right? Like, and that doesn't, that's maybe not a great example. I don't know what your kids are like.
Mickey Anderson 20:57
Or my dog.
20:58
I’m not stressing all day about him, right?
Ellen Leonard 21:00
Yes, yes, I care about my chickens. And I'm not stressed about them.
Mickey Anderson 21:04
So when we're talking specifically about leaders and managers, so we talked about acknowledging the stress in the room, right? I've never heard of anything that doesn't get better by talking about it. Or it gets worse by not talking about it. What are other things that we can do, aside from talking about what we're experiencing to help build a better culture where we manage and plan for stress?
Ellen Leonard 21:25
Oh, this is such a good question. I love this question. Because here's something so often overlooked by just people in general, but also managers and leaders. And this is something that a lot of people don't know about stress, is that different things stress different people out. Right? And I know that they people are like, yeah, but so you know, person A on your team is super stressed by presentations, person B on your team is not right. There's nothing wrong with either of these people, you just might start to use them in different ways. And so when you learn that different people stress in different ways, and that's okay, it doesn't mean they're wrong, or you're right. It's that people are all different, and they're experiencing things differently. So some people can handle like, being yelled at by a client, and it doesn't bother them, and other people are like, that will decimate them. If you have that knowledge as a manager, as a leader, oh, my gosh, you can support your people so much more effectively, it is just bonkers, the difference that it can make and doing that. And here's the other thing. Different stressors affect different people differently. Okay, so sorry, I didn't say that better. So a client yelling at me might make my heart race and make me nauseated, versus a client yelling at you might make you just really irritable, and like, have a racing mind. So it affects us differently. And there's no right or wrong. And knowing that stress affects people differently, that it has different impacts, and that, that's okay. And that it's largely beyond our control, the things I'm listing are just our reactions that are largely beyond our control. It's just such a important thing to acknowledge. Because then what it means is different things are going to work for different people. And that's okay, too. There's nothing wrong with somebody who loves meditation. Meditation is amazing tool. It really works for a lot of people do a lot of different things. There's so much science behind it. And some people just hate it. And that's fine, too. You know, exercise is an amazing tool. It's good for us in a variety of ways, but it obviously has very real stress management results. But, you know, some people think running is horrible, and don't want to do it, maybe they're more into hiking, maybe they like swimming, maybe they don't like any of it. And it's going to be a harder sell. You know, that's all fine. And so, as a leader, as somebody who's, who's running a team or entire organization, just that knowledge is incredibly powerful when you're approaching stress to change the culture, instead of judging people like, ”That shouldn't bother you, or you need to suck it up, or you just need to be better at this.” Those kinds of attitudes are such crap. And they don't do anything for your team or your organization. Like, “That's just the way things are.” No, it's actually not.
Mickey Anderson 24:26
You know, just the way that you explain that made me recognize one of the problems that I have with like the stress world right now as we talk about managing your stress. But you know, you said that's, a lot of it's kind of out of our control. And so I love the fact that you talk about stress planning, instead of necessarily like managing your stress. So when we're looking at managers and organizations and creating plans to deal with the natural stresses that are going to come about because they do every single day. Should we be creating an overall plan for the business
25:00
or is this something we do with each individual within the organization, or both?
Ellen Leonardo 25:04
I love it. Oh. So I think the number one, if you're, if you're running, if you're talking about a team, if you're talking about yourself, you create it, the individual stress management plan, or if you've got a really small team, and that's all you're talking about, do it individually. But bottom line, ask your employees,
25:24
“What stressing you out? What would make you feel better?” they will tell you, oftentimes, it's things like, you know, “Those 7am meetings are killing me, if they could just be at 8am I, that would do transform my entire life, because I can't figure out how to get the kids out of the door, and blah, blah, blah,” like those simple things, ask your employees, ask them. And here's the bonus of that, not only you're gonna get some great information that will help you be a better leader and help your team be more effective. But studies have shown that when employees feel like you're listening to them, and caring about them, I mean, ideally, you are doing that because you actually care about them and not faking it. Spoiler alert, they can also sense that, but like, but that is where you start to build these cultures that everybody's obsessed with, like culture engagement, like, yeah, care about your employees. Just ask them, they'll tell you.
Mickey Anderson 26:19
Yes. So when we think about planning for stress, or creating our stress management plan, is there a formula we should be following? Can you tell us a little bit about what that can look like?
Ellen Leonard 26:30
It is different for everybody. So everybody, yeah, again, handles these things differently. I personally, look at my week, and acknowledge the realities of that week.
26:42
Let's say that was a big project do or it's the first week of school, right? But that's acknowledge the reality of my life for that week, and starting as with that as a basis, just acknowledging like, “That's probably going to be stressful. What is it that would make me actually feel better? What is it that would support me? What is it that I could do differently?” For me, and this is what I recommend for most of my clients. I start with the basics, like, “You need to sleep.”
Mickey Anderson 27:16
Do I ever?
Ellen Leonard 27:17
Some, some of you have young children, I can't help you with that, that will eventually get better. But you someday, really, you need to sleep. Here's the other thing, you also need to eat.
27:31
And so I actually meal prep strategically, some days, I know I'm gonna have time to cook. Other days, I fully acknowledge
27:39
that they are going to be a complete hot mess. And I am not going to have time for that. And that's okay. But I do not function well without food. We will all suffer. And my business will suffer with but it's a you know, you want to separate.
27:58
Also, it turns out you need water. Like, I know people on this call are like, yeah, it is there it is, we've got, shown it off, be proud. Yep. And then movement. I used to say exercise, but people like and I get it like, “I don't want to go to the gym. Sounds awful.” I know. But movement, like movement can be playing with your kids, gardening, walking your dog, whatever it is for you, count that as movement, me going up and straight down the stairs to do laundry, or whatever it is. Think about movements strategically, and how you can incorporate that into your day in a way like maybe you love to cycle. How are you going to fit that in? So, and then the one that often gets overlooked when you're planning is connection? I mean, yeah, you've got meetings with people, like we're doing this podcast thing. But hopefully, you've also got some friends that I'm guessing they'd like to see ya’, or hear from you or your family, you know, call your mom, like,
29:07
give, give your sister a call, like make those connections purposefully. And so I will actually, strategically and I work with clients on this all the time. How do you schedule that in? Like, how do you look at your week realistically, and be like, “Okay, this is what's going to be the thing that gets me through the week. This is where I'm definitely going to have problems. And here's how I am going to strategize my day.” And so it really is about taking that control back because I did say that lots of things about stress are beyond our control. But this is a way the planning, the incorporating it into our daily lives. So really thinking strategically about it is a way that we take back control. And here's what's so cool about that.
Mickey Anderson 29:46 break
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30:00
strategy that scales in the Hustle Less Profit More Club. This monthly business coaching program is designed for busy entrepreneurs and business owners who struggle to market their business. Inside, you'll learn everything you need to set proper marketing goals, prioritize your efforts, and grow your business. Head over to Hey, Nikki anderson.com/club. To learn more. Now, back to the episode.
Ellen Leonard 30:24
Sorry, I get really excited about the science. The science says that whenever you feel like you have more control, even if it's not true, you reduce your stress. So it's so cool. It's so cool.
Mickey Anderson 30:36
That's amazing. And I can tell you as like, quote and unquote, control freak. Yes. It's so true when I even have like perceived control. In situation that I have no -
Ellen Leonard 30:45
It's actually called perceived control. Yeah.
Mickey Anderson 30:48
It feels so much better. Now, I know that there will be some people in who are listening. And there was a time in my life where I would have said the same thing. I don't have time for any of that I am so busy, my day is jammed from start to finish. Are there things that I can do while I'm working? Or do I really need to just cut things out? Like how do I manage all this?
Ellen Leonard 31:08
That's a great question. So my number one recommendation to entrepreneurs, so entrepreneurs that are listening right now, hire help, like whatever you can do. Whether that is hiring somebody to clean your house, or mow your lawn, if that's affordable to you. If not, you can order groceries on your phone now and get that cut out of your day. How are you asking for help to, right? Your friends and family I mentioned earlier, I heard a rumor, they actually really liked you and care about you. And if you were to ask for help, they would probably say yes. And how do I know that? Because ask yourself right now, if your friends and family called you and we're like, “Oh my gosh, I'm just so stressed about blah, blah, blah. Could you help me by doing this?” You would probably say yes. It's an ask for help kind of situation. And yes, I'm going to agree with you starting to say no to things like “What can I get rid of? so that I can have a more sustainable and balanced life.” And I love going through saying no practices with clients, because there's so many aha moments was like, “Oh, I don't even like doing that.” They're like, “I hate that.” Oh, do you want to know a big thing that I said no to? Mickey, do you want it? Like, let's hear oh, and I feel like it's a dirty secret as an entrepreneur that I'm about to share, like this thing that will blow people's mind that I completely got rid of, I completely deleted my Instagram account, my Facebook account.
Mickey Anderson 32:41
I took them off my phone. So I'm still there.
Ellen Leonard 32:43
I went one step further. They are gone. And here's what's, it's basically magic, if you've been wondering, but I said no to it. I was thinking like what weigh the pros and cons of the things? Yeah. Does it hurt my business? Yeah, it does. But I found ways to do that, that actually support me. Some people love being on social, I hated it. It added so much stress to my life. And now without it. I'm like, whoa, what are these shoulders? They're moving, layer tents, and by my ears anymore? I feel like I can breathe throughout the day. It's so weird knife. But yes, what can you say no to? What can you say no to? Yeah.
Mickey Anderson 33:24
I think, you know, in our day to day, we grind through a lot. And we assume that it's because we're tough and we need to, but I think you're right. There's a lot of things that we have. We make choices every single day. And it's just being intentional. And recognizing the stuff that are contributing to who you want to be, and the business you want to run and the stuff that aren't. You know, I was speaking with somebody a couple days ago. And they were talking about these big goals they had for their business and what they wanted to achieve. And the reason why they wanted to do it was to support their family and to give them a great retirement. But this person was suffering, like excruciating day-to-day grind, stressed crying at night, not sleeping. And the thing that I asked that I feel like was a little bit of a stab with the knife that really got the message across was how good is all that retirement savings if your family hates you, because you've been irritable and not fun to be around this whole time.
34:14
The look I got immediately was like, You know what, Okay, it's time to cut some things out. Because, like, as much as it's great to think about retirement and long term, the present is just as important.
Ellen Leonard 34:25
Yeah, and I love that because of what you, you know, if I was to ask everybody I know, what is the most important thing to you, almost all of them would say, supporting my, myself and my family, like supporting us, and like health, and money and like all that goes into that and my, my, my family, that's what they would say is the most important, and oftentimes I find that they're that's not connected to their behavior. That's not how like so making sure that your values and your actions are in alignment is actually a huge stress management tool. So, like when you check in with that if you're like, okay, if I'm saying,
35:00
“The number one important thing to me is my kids.” Is that true, too? I have evidence of that. If I'm saying, “The number one important thing is my health and wellness right now,” what evidence? Do I have to support that? What are the actual things that I'm doing? And how I'm living my life that support themt? And what are the things that are like, “Oh, that is not in alignment?” Because when you have that misalignment, that adds a lot of stress. Because you're constantly trying to resolve that mentally, right? Like, you're like, there's a little battle inside your brain where it's like,
35:33
“Oh, there's something wrong here.”
Mickey Anderson 35:36
Yeah. It's so true, I can think back to times in my life where that was absolutely the case. And it was this like, underlying, almost like a toothache level of stress that just never went away. And you couldn't quite pin it. Until all of a sudden one day was like the eruption. Like to say, you know, what, I really want to make sure we talk about his behavior, because this is your specialty is getting people to go from that ideation to actually taking action. And I know a lot of us have great intentions, I sure do. I write things on the to-do list and put it in my calendar. But lo and behold, sometimes it doesn't happen. And I'm just either not motivated, or I haven't built up the habit or something comes up. And so are there things that we can do to help kind of stack the deck a little bit in our favor to make sure that we're doing the behaviors that are gonna most support us?
Ellen Leonard 36:25
Yeah, so there's a couple of things. Number one, be realistic,
36:29
is what you're adding into your week actually happening, like going to happen? Do you have space and time for that? Like, if you're looking at your calendar? Can it actually fit in there? Yeah, so being realistic. Number two, remembering just start small. Like if I'm doing something if I was to start meditating for a minute a day, and then add a minute, every week, by the end of the year, or I'm meditating for an hour, I mean, people feel like an entrepreneurs, especially because we're so
37:00
motivated.
37:03
Like, we want to, like do it all. We want to do it alright, and we want to do all now. And with things like this, that's just not possible. None of us are running around, like, so much free time, what can I fill in with that, like let’s do that, like, we don't have the time and space to add more things. So what's a small thing,
37:22
five-minute thing that you could do. Also, I mean, there's, there's a lot of science behind tying new habits to existing behaviors. So like, every time you brush your teeth, you will also meditate for five minutes or exercise for five minutes. That's a really bad example. Because nobody's going to be like, no teeth, and then do five jumping jacks. And like, I mean, don't go into but yeah, but you get the point is like, it's tied to an existing thing that you already do. That time is probably a better example like, so if I'm tying my turning off my phone, and getting it out of the room with my brushing my teeth before I go to bed, then that can build that behavior up. A lot of people function well, with rewards, I found that doesn't work long term, that's a short-term solution. Like if I do X, Y, and Z, I get to have or I get to do I've never liked the carrot and stick kind of situation. Yeah, there's more short, short-term things. But so the other thing that often gets overlooked when people are approaching these long-term lasting behavioral changes, is things that you're already doing and building on those, right? Because oftentimes, the, the mentality is like, “Oh, I have to do this new thing,” or “I have to do this a new way, or whatever.” Maybe you do. And that's fine. But oftentimes, you're already doing something. And how do you just do that more, or better, or different, and that's much more manageable, and already allowing space and time for something that already exists in your life. And building off of that.
Mickey Anderson 39:01
I love that because a lot of times we, we do have that mentality of I can't add another single thing to my list. And so starting with what you're already doing, feels so much more manageable. Now, for those of us who maybe have reached that point where we're kind of burnt out, we've hit like the extreme level of stress, where we're starting to become erratic, maybe you're not sleeping, or we've just hit that place where it's like, I'm just everything's falling apart. And instead of like just taking two days off, and then getting back to exactly where you're where you were, what can we do to start kind of bringing ourselves back to a healthy place?
Ellen Leonard 39:37
Yeah, so first of all know you're not alone. So in everything you just described, the number one thing I run into is people feel like it's just them, that there's something wrong with them, that they did it wrong. And I would like to emphasize that as an entrepreneur, what you're doing is really hard. It's hard. And so you are having the normal
40:00
reaction to working so hard. So you're just being human. I know you didn't think you were. But it turns out you are. So just taking a moment and sitting in that is helpful.
Mickey Anderson 40:13
I think a lot of us have these unrealistic expectations, or we've seen people do these incredible things. And we assume that we should be able to do it the same way they did. But we don't have all the context.
Ellen Leonard 40:24
Yeah. And then the next thing that I would highly advise is to start building rest into your, an actual rest, not multitasking. I'm on to you. I know. You're like, Well, I'm gonna read for rest, but I'm gonna secretly read these like eight business books that I've been meaning to read. Like, it's what is rest look like to you? How do you take a break? start to really and that word self-care, I really do hate that word. But radical self-care, like prioritizing yourself. If you feel that you are legitimately burnout, finding a therapist, I honestly think every entrepreneur should have a therapist. Because my therapist knows about my stresses of creating funnels, she knows about the time my website crashed. Oh, the time that a link was broken, and I wasn't getting oh my gosh, she knows about all that. And she's literally paid to care about it. Well to pretend she does, and I just yeah, so yeah, I would highly advise, because I need a place where I can go because being an entrepreneur can awesome, oftentimes be very isolating. And I need a place where I can go and talk and talk about, it's also a great opportunity to work out maybe some problems you're having with your employees and how you'd like to go about handling it. Because oftentimes, you don't have anybody else to talk to about that. Or problems in your business, you're not comfortable sharing with anybody, oh my gosh, it's just such a relief to have this outside objective person who is an expert in my brain, and my emotions, because I am not
42:00
to roll-in and help me like find that extra bit of sanity. So, if you are, really feel like you are burnout, I would find a health professional, have some kind of mental health professional, see your doctor, right? Every entrepreneur should like actually have a doctor ready to go. Because you do not have time to be sorting that out when you're sick. So, actually call it your health team, like your, your team, that's just for your health and wellness. It could be your personal trainers on that list, your massage therapist, your stress management coach, your meditation or yoga instructor, like all those people are on your team. And creating a really robust support team can be just such a win, especially if you're trying to pull yourself back from burnout.
Mickey Anderson 42:45
You know, I love that you said that. Because a lot of us will go straight to a well, I just need a business coach or I just need a coach instead of I also maybe probably need somebody in mental health, not just who's there for personal development, per se. But to help me deal with the real, maybe traumatic stuff that's going on in my life that I've been avoiding. And I think sometimes we miss the mark, and you might need both. Sometimes you only need one. But sometimes you need both.
Ellen Leonard 43:14
Yeah. And especially with everything that we've been living through recently, and I've said this, feel so many times this point, but humans were actually not designed to deal with the level of stress that we've been expected to deal with and say the past like two or three years. But when you think about it, rationally, it's kind of bonkers. But when you're experiencing and when you're in it, it can be very easy to be like, “Oh, why is this so hard? What's wrong with me? I should be able to do this?” And the answer is like, No, you were actually designed for some versions of chronic stressors. Like I would say parenting is a chronic stressor, right? Yeah. I mean, I mean, in a loving way, everybody I mean, I mean, like it's always something new, like they're two and then they're three, and then they're teenagers. And then they're, you know, at college, and all of that is like you see Mickey's eyes getting really big if you're listening online. Yeah, her eyes are huge. She's like, “Oh, crap, I didn't think about that.” But I would call that a chronic stressor. I would also call something like college, a chronic stressor, but as a discrete end, right, like you're always doing tests, and then it's, but an acute stressor is what we're actually mostly built for is like, “Oh, I had a fight with so and so today. And I'm upset, we're this thing's gonna go the right way.” We're built to handle that. But the level of chronic stress that's happening right now is insane. And we were not designed to handle it. So keeping that in mind as well is like if again, kind of gets at this like eight times. If you're finding it hard. It's because it is.
Mickey Anderson 44:45
Yeah, I love that. I think if anything, those who are listening like this is great validation to know that first off, you're not alone, but also like yes, this is really hard and you don't have to suffer in silence. Right.? There are things you
45:00
can do to help you along the way. It doesn't have to be painful and suffering all the time.
Ellen Leonard 45:04
It doesn't. It doesn't. Even with the things that are beyond your control.
Mickey Anderson 45:09
Yeah, yeah. Now I'd love to learn more about you. And when you're working with a client, what that can look like, or how you can help entrepreneurs or maybe anyone who's interested listening on the podcast, what that would look like working with you, and what kind of outcomes you can produce.
Ellen Leonard 45:24
Yeah, so I do one-on-one, stress management coaching, which is just basically like a three-month kind of program where we get your stress handled, and you leave with a plan. Like, I'm not screwing around. It's like we do, do, do, you will get homework, but I know you love homework. So you're fine.
45:43
Yeah, I'm onto you.
45:46
No, so I help people one on one. And I love that. But I also go in and help organizations and teams with stress management programming, workshops, or like long term kind of programming, where with the one-on-one, you definitely see improvements in your stress. With a yeah, so you definitely you will feel less stressed. But you will also feel really confident in your plan moving forward, which I find most entrepreneurs are just like, “Yeah, I got this now.” And it's something they can check off and not worry about anymore. It's like when you finally figured out how to do SEO, and you were like, “Oh, thank goodness, I figured that out.” Because, “Yeah, I need to check that off.” But with the corporate programming that I offer, and this is oh, this is a good story. All right, so I was running my 16-week program, which sounds long to a lot of corporations that's running my 16-year program. We started in January of 2020. And we ran through May of 2020. So what happened in March of that year? Anybody? anybody? Anybody? Like the most stressful event in human history that impacted all of us? COVID? Right? All everything happened. And nobody was more stressed. At the end of the program. It was a huge 100% of the people that went through the program, were either just as stressed, which I'm counting is up when like we were all in that, or less stressed. I was like, that's like magic. I was like, that's a magic wand, I think, or science. It's actually a science, but it's like -
Mickey Anderson 47:19
It’s a little bit, but mostly science. Let's get real. But I think that proves the proactive approach is really important when it comes to this not waiting until the moment of like -
Ellen Leonard 47:27
Oh, yeah.
Mickey Anderson 47:28
burnout, or when your attrition rate is ridiculous to seek support. So for organizations who maybe need a little convincing about, what sorts of things that this kind of a corporate program can solve or help with? What are some of the key factors that maybe mean your team's a little bit unprepared to deal with the stress they've got on their plates?
Ellen Leonard 47:49
Okay, so productivity declines, or quality of work declines, like so and so used to do this, and now she's doing this. Hmmm, I wonder what's going on there. But attrition, right, like, oh, the great resignation. There's a big one. Yeah. Oh, that's weird. Rising healthcare costs, absenteeism, right? People disappearing more, if you're getting ghosted a lot. What does that called? Quiet quitting?
Mickey Anderson 48:16
Quiet quitting? Yes.
Ellen Leonard 48:17
There's a new name for it every day. But you can, you can see a lot of it in the metrics. Right? And in how people are responding just in the general tenure of meetings. If people are more irritable, when they didn't used to be, they're more angry, you're having to manage more conflicts. There's more HR stuff happening. There's a lot of ways to really know that like, okay, something, something here is going on. And, and ideally, I'm working on that.
Mickey Anderson 48:45
Yeah. Ding, ding, ding. For any of you listening. For those listening who are like, “Yeah, that's me.” Or maybe they're interested in not burning out this year and coming in with a plan.
Ellen Leonard 48:58
I love that. I love that plan. If you're rolling into 2023, maybe with less stress.
Mickey Anderson 49:03
Whatever burnout free 2023, that’s my mantra.
Ellen Leonard 49:06
That’s a good goal. That's a really good goal.
Mickey Anderson 49:10
Where can they find you? Since we know you're not on Instagram and Facebook? Where can listeners find you to learn more about you?
Ellen Leonard 49:15
Well, you can find me at www.ellen-leonard.com. That's E L L E N - L E O N A R D dot com. And I think maybe you'll see it share this in the show notes. But you can go to back/stresspodcast. And there are all sorts of resources, some of my favorite podcasts and my favorite books, and apps and things like that, that can really help to support you, and ways to work with me, obviously. And yeah, you can find that at that link there.
Mickey Anderson 49:45
Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Ellen. I feel like I'm ready. Finally to take the step and start proactively planning. But also, I feel like I have a much more maybe a little bit more confidence in the fact that I don't have to reinvent things or come up with new
50:00
things, I can just look at what I'm already doing and try and do a better job at those things. And I'm sure a lot of the listeners probably feel the same. So thank you so much for today. I so appreciate your time.
Ellen Leonard 50:09
Well, thank you so much for having me, and I sincerely hope that everybody listening feels a little less stressed and a little more in control empowered to take their stress on because you have more control over it than you think you do. And I know that you can do something about it.
Mickey Anderson 50:24
Amazing, Thank you so much.
50:32
Thank you for joining me in another episode of the Hustle Less Profit More Podcast. Thanks to our Season One sponsor Sterry Pursuit Marketing and Communications. You can find show notes and resources at hustlelessprofitmorepodcast.com. If you enjoyed the show, don't forget to rate and review us where you get your podcasts. Join us again next time to uncover more of the keys to achieving success, wealth, fulfillment, and freedom. Thanks for listening.
